Soulsborne Thread #8 (ELDENNNNNNNNNNNNNN RINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG)

[Witchking of Angmar]

29 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

The worst offender, who checks two of these bosses, is the shitty ass "Ulcerated Tree Spirit" who just keeps popping up and basically just flails around the arena, taking up 80% of your screen while you dodge role directly into him. It seems completely random and there is no real strategy or learning curve when fighting it. And you do it over, and over, and over.

That's the one I was primarily thinking about when writing down that con. May not be so bad for ranged spell characters as they can have the luxury to stay at a decent distance, but for melee characters they're indeed a pain.

30 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

How did you feel about the summoning ashes?

On one hand I think they can be a good stand-in for summoning other players for cooperation, which is good if your internet or the servers decide to fuck up. On the other hand I read bosses were designed with them in mind and that's why I felt the late game was poorly balanced when I tried playing without them.

Mimic tear is by far the best one. It just copies you and if you got good gear it will too. And using it costs health instead of focus, which means my non-spell caster can use it without much issue.

[The Good Doctor]

7 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

I think it gives a really cool playstyle, and gives you alot more build variety, cause there's some crazy summons (like the suicide bomber jars) I really like them myself, 

This is the stuff that I like. Summons that play unique and moderately helpful roles that a skillful player must learn which are best for what scenarios. Maybe suicide jars are better for X enemy while the turret elf is better for Y. Maybe one compliments players with tanky builds, while another compliments ranged. Maybe some have no offensive capabilities but can buff or heal you, etc.

Instead, there seems to be basically no reason (other than RP/flavor) to just use the strongest, tankiest summon in your inventory and ignore all the rest. Because nothing else comes close to being as useful as what essentially amounts to a second boss who is on your team. Why would I waste a summon on exploding jars when I can call in Oleg+8 and sit in the corner while he rips Godfrey in half by himself?

I don’t do that.  But I could. 

[BigBossBalrog]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

This is the stuff that I like. Summons that play unique and moderately helpful roles that a skillful player must learn which are best for what scenarios. Maybe suicide jars are better for X enemy while the turret elf is better for Y. Maybe one compliments players with tanky builds, while another compliments ranged. Maybe some have no offensive capabilities but can buff or heal you, etc.

Instead, there seems to be basically no reason (other than RP/flavor) to just use the strongest, tankiest summon in your inventory and ignore all the rest. Because nothing else comes close to being as useful as what essentially amounts to a second boss who is on your team. Why would I waste a summon on exploding jars when I can call in Oleg+8 and sit in the corner while he rips Godfrey in half by himself?

I don’t do that.  But I could. 

I also think it comes down to gate-keeping versus accessibility; summoning gives alot of options to people who struggle with the game, and I honestly think it's a solid idea. I agree that they need to be toned down a bit. I dont have to engage with the feature; I beat every boss with a pure strength melee build and a crossbow. on my first run. 

So yeah, I think they just need to tweak the summons. 

Dark Souls 1, 2, and 3 had major balance issues at launch too, and FROM latest patch helped a few areas already, so I hope they can find a right balance between using the summons as a crutch for weaker players to making them balanced for there hardcore audience. 

[The Good Doctor]

11 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

On the other hand I read bosses were designed with them in mind and that's why I felt the late game was poorly balanced when I tried playing without them.

This is what I’m worried about. I haven’t encountered anything that felt this way yet besides Radahn (but that was for NPC summons and a clear gimmick) and a few dungeon bosses who came in doubles. But everyone says the feeling becomes more prevalent as the game goes on so I am dreading that a bit.

I like to play these games solo. The best boss fights From has made, stuff like Maria and Gael, were designed to be played that way. I don’t want to feel like I am supposed to have help. Kills the satisfaction of the win.

[BigBossBalrog]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

This is what I’m worried about. I haven’t encountered anything that felt this way yet besides Radahn (but that was for NPC summons and a clear gimmick) and a few dungeon bosses who came in doubles. But everyone says the feeling becomes more prevalent as the game goes on so I am dreading that a bit.

I like to play these games solo. The best boss fights From has made, stuff like Maria and Gael, were designed to be played that way. I don’t want to feel like I am supposed to have help. Kills the satisfaction of the win.

I disagree with that statement personally, besides the double boss fights. I think all of the necessary ones on the main story path are geared towards one on one.

But I guess it always dependent on your build and your skill. 

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

I also think it comes down to gate-keeping versus accessibility; summoning gives alot of options to people who struggle with the game

That’s the same argument people make for an easy mode.

There have always been builds that are more OP and easier to use than others, but spirits are not even a build. It’s just an item you can deploy at basically no cost that proceeds to play the game for you. 

I dunno what the solution is, but it just feels strange as part of a From game, when the whole appeal is that they are challenging and require you to become skilled to beat. 

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

I disagree with that statement personally, besides the double boss fights. I think all of the necessary ones on the main story path are geared towards one on one.

But I guess it always dependent on your build and your skill. 

Fair enough. Like I said, I haven’t felt that way myself yet either. But I am still in Lyndell Royal Capital, apparently before the enemies start getting crazy. 

[BigBossBalrog]

4 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

That’s the same argument people make for an easy mode.

There have always been builds that are more OP and easier to use than others, but spirits are not even a build. It’s just an item you can deploy at basically no cost that proceeds to play the game for you. 

I dunno what the solution is, but it just feels strange as part of a From game, when the whole appeal is that they are challenging and require you to become skilled to beat. 

The difference is rather then altering the game world, it provides a more easy way of playing. Just like the builds, but your right it's way easier to access. 

[Witchking of Angmar]

6 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

I disagree with that statement personally, besides the double boss fights. I think all of the necessary ones on the main story path are geared towards one on one.

But I guess it always dependent on your build and your skill. 

And I disagree on the base that their stats are way off for a one on one for a character of expected level. Or any level because of soft cap. I honestly feel like I've walked into New Game+.

[BigBossBalrog]

3 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

And I disagree on the base that their stats are way off for a one on one for a character of expected level. Or any level because of soft cap. I honestly feel like I've walked into New Game+.

I did fine in the end game. Agree to disagree. 

[The Good Doctor]

2 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

And I disagree on the base that their stats are way off for a one on one for a character of expected level. Or any level because of soft cap. I honestly feel like I've walked into New Game+.

I have heard that the soft caps are different for different skills. Like some are 40, some are 50, and some are 60. So it might be worth finding out which are higher and building more into those.

[TheCzarsHussar]

18 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

This is what I’m worried about. I haven’t encountered anything that felt this way yet besides Radahn (but that was for NPC summons and a clear gimmick) and a few dungeon bosses who came in doubles. But everyone says the feeling becomes more prevalent as the game goes on so I am dreading that a bit.

I don't know if the dialogue is unique, since I never summoned for Radahn. But if you do choose to have a straight up champion duel with Radahn, everyone respects the hell out of it and gives you full honors alone.

If it's unique dialogue, then I love that little feature. Either swarm him with the greatest living warriors in your diminished, lesser age, or tackle him alone and wow all the onlookers.

[The Good Doctor]

7 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

The difference is rather then altering the game world, it provides a more easy way of playing. Just like the builds, but your right it's way easier to access. 

The difference is that even the best builds still required skill to use in prior games. Summons just require enough skill to acquire and upgrade them, which isn’t that much, then they proceed to play the game for you.

Call me a gatekeeper, but to me it just seems like a diegetic easy mode. Certainly better than an actual easy mode, but it effectively achieves the same end. 

I wouldn’t remove them. I’d just nerf the best ones pretty hard. 

[Witchking of Angmar]

3 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

I did fine in the end game. Agree to disagree. 

You also admitted that you got through Malenia by running away most of the fight. I think we have different opinions on what is fine.

3 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

I have heard that the soft caps are different for different skills. Like some are 40, some are 50, and some are 60. So it might be worth finding out which are higher and building more into those.

Well I did notice that strength and dex did not really drop off after 40. Though even with a fully upgraded greatsword that I always two handed, 60+ in both dex and strength, I still only felt I was barely qualified to deal enough damage to the bosses to not be a slog.

[BigBossBalrog]

2 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

The difference is that even the best builds still required skill to use in prior games. Summons just require enough skill to acquire and upgrade them, which isn’t that much, then they proceed to play the game for you.

Call me a gatekeeper, but to me it just seems like a diegetic easy mode. Certainly better than an actual easy mode, but it effectively achieves the same end. 

I wouldn’t remove them. I’d just nerf the best ones pretty hard. 

The nerfing has already begun 

[BigBossBalrog]

1 minute ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

You also admitted that you got through Malenia by running away most of the fight. I think we have different opinions on what is fine

Well I did notice that strength and dex did not really drop off after 40. Though even with a fully upgraded greatsword that I always two handed, 60+ in both dex and strength, I still only felt I was barely qualified to deal enough damage to the bosses to not be a slog.

Malenia is a completely optional bonus boss. 

[TheCzarsHussar]

9 minutes ago, BigBossBalrog said:

I did fine in the end game. Agree to disagree. 

Those atrophied twig archers in the late game secret area are tankier than Ringed Knights. 

[BigBossBalrog]

Not to mention while rocking a fully upgraded heavy infused Greatsword with seventy strength, I cut through everything in the end areas. 

[BigBossBalrog]

2 minutes ago, TheCzarsHussar said:

Those atrophied twig archers in the late game secret area are tankier than Ringed Knights. 

I told you my opinion on the Haligtree area, it's secret, optional, and more importantly, disconnected from the rest of the game, so i'm way less critical of it's harsh balance 

[Witchking of Angmar]

Just now, BigBossBalrog said:

Malenia is a completely optional bonus boss. 

Though she's still comparable to some other late game bosses in terms of damage, health and attack speed.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, BigBossBalrog said:

Malenia is a completely optional bonus boss. 

Can’t speak for her fight yet, but just as a rule I think it’s fair to still want an optional bonus boss to be well-balanced and fun to fight. 

[TheCzarsHussar]

Just now, BigBossBalrog said:

I told you my opinion on the Haligtree area, it's secret, optional, and more importantly, disconnected from the rest of the game, so i'm way less critical of it's harsh balance 

Oh no, I'm actually fine with how hard it is, minus that fucking puzzle when you're a melee build, that was agony.

My sole complaint is Malenia's wombo combo

[TheCzarsHussar]

The whole of the secret area, from start to finish, was beautiful in its design and atmosphere. It felt like I traveled to Atmora, then to Gondolin but tree. 

[BigBossBalrog]

3 minutes ago, Witchking of Angmar said:

Though she's still comparable to some other late game bosses in terms of damage, health and attack speed.

That's another area I completely disagree on. The final boss took me about an hour, while the Valkyrie took me five hours of learning hit and run tactics, shes' far harder in all those areas you listed.

[BigBossBalrog]

1 minute ago, TheCzarsHussar said:

The whole of the secret area, from start to finish, was beautiful in its design and atmosphere. It felt like I traveled to Atmora, then to Gondolin but tree. 

It's one of my favorites for sure.