Soulsborne Thread #13

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

It makes sense either way. We are "emboldened by the flame of ambition" and pursuing a throne that the other demigods either want for themselves or don’t want us getting, regardless of our lineage. 

emboldened by ambition just because seems weak to me vs us having a legitimate claim, at least in some small way that is. Small enough that others would argue its not enough but big enough that it makes sense to the story why there was ever motivation to try in the first place or believe Marika would ever want this.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

Not really when your point was that the children of Marika and Godfrey were shunned and persecuted. Godwyn was beloved while she was married to Radagon, even though his father had already been sent away in exile.

I never said they always were shunned or immediately shunned tho

[ColonelKillaBee]

You yourself said their prosecution happened after the shattering. They wouldnt be shunned prior because there already was an elden lord and no call for a new lord was there. Therefore there's no need to go after illegitimate bastard possible offspring of Marika.

Only after the shattering were they prosecuted yes in a bygone era we dont currently know the full timeline to, which leaves plenty of time for those tarnished to be killed and born anew as Renalla's rune says.

[The Good Doctor]

6 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Its better explained in the same videos we both watched from the archaeologist dude.

I haven’t watched even half of that guy’s videos.  

6 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Then why was he replaced and made tarnished

I have a few guesses on that, but I don’t think any of them are because she changed her view to see him as undesirable. Especially if Marika knew all along that she might one day recall the Tarnished. They were her Ace in the Hole against the flawed Order she had helped create. That includes Godfrey and us.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Just now, The Good Doctor said:

I haven’t watched even half of that guy’s videos.  

I have a few guesses on that, but I don’t think any of them are because she changed her view to see him as undesirable. Especially if Marika knew all along that she might one day recall the Tarnished. They were her Ace in the Hole against the flawed Order she had helped create. That includes Godfrey and us.

oh xD I had a lot of time to at my old job.

Thats just the story we're told, for all we know there's some meta purpose to this which is unclear, Marika was guided in a way we dont fully understand yet. Some think her master plan was just to preserve the world as it is and never have anyone succeed in becoming elden lord. I dont think that's the case tho.

I think she knew that the greater will would call for a new elden lord since her line with godfrey was now cursed after godwyn, and she needed tarnished as her ace for that reason.

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

emboldened by ambition just because seems weak to me vs us having a legitimate claim,

Why? Morgott doesn’t want anyone to take the throne, "legitimate" claim or not. None of the active demigods have no more reason to stand for us taking the throne as a nobody than they would if we were a somebody. Both cases are bad in their eyes.

The only exception might actually be Messmer. Besides Morgott, he is the only character in aware of who makes an appeal to our "worthiness" and, according to him, we are bereft of light and thus unworthy. He is seemingly baffled and offended by the fact that his mother would sanction lordship for one such as us. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

To add to that, it would make sense then for Morgott to spawn camp Tarnished. That the tree, controlled by Radagon/Marika doesnt deem him worthy so why then should these Tarnished created and brought back by Marika be allowed entry? It doesnt open for us true but he wasnt even willing to see if it would or not.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

Why? Morgott doesn’t want anyone to take the throne, "legitimate" claim or not. None of the active demigods have no more reason to stand for us taking the throne as a nobody than they would if we were a somebody. Both cases are bad in their eyes.

The only exception might actually be Messmer. Besides Morgott, he is the only character in aware of who makes an appeal to our "worthiness" and, according to him, we are bereft of light and thus unworthy. He is seemingly baffled and offended by the fact that his mother would sanction lordship for one such as us. 

See above, but your last line is what Im talking about and why it makes more sense. In fact same goes for Messmers line as well in his fight about us.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Some think her master plan was just to preserve the world as it is and never have anyone succeed in becoming elden lord. I dont think that's the case tho.

I don’t think that either. I think it’s pretty clear from her final spoken echoes that later in life, Marika started to see with clearer eyes and recognized the flawed Order she had created. Shattering the Elden Ring and recalling the Tarnished were her way of hitting a soft reset button with the hopes that we would put things right. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

And historically speaking, she often leaves it to her children to do her heavy lifting.

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

To add to that, it would make sense then for Morgott to spawn camp Tarnished. That the tree, controlled by Radagon/Marika doesnt deem him worthy so why then should these Tarnished created and brought back by Marika be allowed entry? It doesnt open for us true but he wasnt even willing to see if it would or not.

But again, this is applicable whether we are Marika’s children or not. If we are, then he’d think we’re unworthy, and if we aren’t, he’d still think it even more.

I find Messmer’s lines more telling. He doesn’t seem to hold any ambitions for the throne. He just wants to be a good boy and make mommy proud. But to me, his bafflement at Marika pivoting to favor the Tarnished with Grace makes more sense if there is otherwise nothing special about us. He seems legitimately confused as to why we’d be sanctioned for lordship. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

6 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

But again, this is applicable whether we are Marika’s children or not. If we are, then he’d think we’re unworthy, and if we aren’t, he’d still think it even more.

I find Messmer’s lines more telling. He doesn’t seem to hold any ambitions for the throne. He just wants to be a good boy and make mommy proud. But to me, his bafflement at Marika pivoting to favor the Tarnished with Grace makes more sense if there is otherwise nothing special about us. He seems legitimately confused as to why we’d be sanctioned for lordship. 

There isnt anything special about us, in their world. In fact there's a whole line of the golden lineage that left with godfrey after he was made tarnished, like Gideon and his adopted daughter. The people of stormveil castle, the chapel of anticipation being where we were born and is connected to such. That name isnt coincidental either.

There's whole cultures attached to godfrey as his kinfolk. But like Godrick they're very distant cousins, their relation to Marika isnt strong like Messmer, a direct offspring. 

Again, Marika and her elden lord spawn many people via the erdtree, births them and reincarnates them. Those considered royal are those with closest bloodlines to her. 

Being a bastard offspring of her actually makes you even worse than a mere cousin because you're considered soulless and lacking much grace, hence how we can be reborn and remade. Its both our superpower and curse. 

Thats why Messmer looks at us as less than dirt and will not suffer one so bereft of Light.

That seems special to you the player, but not to them in this world. You are less than common, which ironically makes you more. Much like a gladiator is both special and yet a slave. 

[ColonelKillaBee]

Its not directly mentioned exactly but Im also sure that being born or reincarnated via the tree vs being born naturally has something to do with who is considered royal or having grace as well, but i dont fully understand that yet. All I know is that right now, the erdtree is mostly illusory and before it was a real actual tree which got burned, multiple times actually, and since then its been mostly live births that populate the lands between till the tree grows back.

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Being a bastard offspring of her actually makes you even worse than a mere cousin because you're considered soulless and lacking much grace, hence how we can be reborn and remade. Its both our superpower and curse. 

A child of Marika and Godfrey wouldn’t be a bastard. They’d be trueborn, like Godwyn or the Omen twins. Bastards are those born outside of wedlock, which we wouldn’t be if Godfrey is our father.

But you’re stating a lot of stuff as factual that I have no idea where you’re getting it from. Since when are we, or any Tarnished, soulless? 

[ColonelKillaBee]

4 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

A child of Marika and Godfrey wouldn’t be a bastard. They’d be trueborn, like Godwyn or the Omen twins. Bastards are those born outside of wedlock, which we wouldn’t be if Godfrey is our father.

But you’re stating a lot of stuff as factual that I have no idea where you’re getting it from. Since when are we, or any Tarnished, soulless? 

Youre wrong there, bastards and being born from wedlock are those born from people who are not married. Normally this is prior to marriage, but with how pregnancy doesnt work the way it does normally in this world because it involves the tree, she and the tree can have seed fertilized well after Godfrey was banished, and both his line born and being born would be illegitimized and considered bastards.

Im getting it from dialogue either from the ghosts at the mausoleum, the description of the rune of the unborn, or quotes about godfrey himself. Some of which is in that link I already shared. 

[The Good Doctor]

Speaking of bastardy, I suspect Messmer and Melina might’ve been bastards, themselves.

Messmer in his second phase is referred to as the "Base Serpent". In Middle English, to be baseborn means to be a bastard child. And GRRM uses this term a lot in his writing. 

We also have evidence that Radagon was a servant of the Golden Order before he fully became one with Marika.

What if Marika and Radahon hooked up before or during her union with Godfrey to produce Messmer and Melina as bastards. And then, many years later (after Godfrey’s exile), they actually married/became one and produced Miquella and Malenia as trueborn heirs.

This would explain why Messmer resembles Radagon and Malenia despite being older than Radahn (who predates the marriage of Marika and Radagon). And it would explain why Messmer and Melina are not treated as contenders for the throne even though Miquella is.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Great Rune of the Unborn | Elden Ring Wiki (fextralife.com)-

From that video I sent yall the other day showing the masoleum noises when we're reborn at the beginning of the game im convinced this is us. 

We're not soulless, our soul is simply reborn. Unbound to the erdtree.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Posting this for the first two minutes lol since theres an entire two fucking hours lol

 

 

[The Good Doctor]

13 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Youre wrong there, bastards and being born from wedlock are those born from people who are not married.

I cannot decipher what you mean by this.  A bastard is a child of two people who are not married. That’s a pretty simple definition and it’s hard to be wrong about.

9 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

We're not soulless, our soul is simply reborn. Unbound to the erdtree.

Thank you for clarifying. This makes much more sense to me than how you worded it before.

[The Good Doctor]

11 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Speaking of bastardy, I suspect Messmer and Melina might’ve been bastards, themselves.

Messmer in his second phase is referred to as the "Base Serpent". In Middle English, to be baseborn means to be a bastard child. And GRRM uses this term a lot in his writing. 

We also have evidence that Radagon was a servant of the Golden Order before he fully became one with Marika.

What if Marika and Radahon hooked up before or during her union with Godfrey to produce Messmer and Melina as bastards. And then, many years later (after Godfrey’s exile), they actually married/became one and produced Miquella and Malenia as trueborn heirs.

This would explain why Messmer resembles Radagon and Malenia despite being older than Radahn (who predates the marriage of Marika and Radagon). And it would explain why Messmer and Melina are not treated as contenders for the throne even though Miquella is.

@ColonelKillaBee Thoughts on this? I figured you’d like it since it backs up your theory about Messmer’s parentage.

I think it makes the most sense of things. It would explain why these two children of Marika and Radagon might be treated in a wholly different manner from the other two.

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

I cannot decipher what you mean by this.  A bastard is a child of two people who are not married. That’s a pretty simple definition and it’s hard to be wrong about.

Thats what i said xD

16 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Youre wrong there, bastards and being born from wedlock are those born from people who are not married.

Godfrey and Marika are not married anymore, he is replaced. Any offspring she had after that would be bastards if they came from him. The tree has a long gestation period.

[ColonelKillaBee]

4 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

 

Thank you for clarifying. This makes much more sense to me than how you worded it before.

To be fair your responses are being rapid fired lol

[The Good Doctor]

9 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Posting this for the first two minutes lol since theres an entire two fucking hours lol

 

 

That is wild.  

[The Good Doctor]

1 minute ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

To be fair your responses are being rapid fired lol

Then we are in a self-perpetuating loop because I felt that way about yours.  

[ColonelKillaBee]

1 minute ago, The Good Doctor said:

@ColonelKillaBee Thoughts on this? I figured you’d like it since it backs up your theory about Messmer’s parentage.

I think it makes the most sense of things. It would explain why these two children of Marika and Radagon might be treated in a wholly different manner from the other two.

Well that also explains why Messmer would be so offended at our presence lol and he definitely gives "bastard" energy lmao

Melina it also makes sense, she and Messmer are both sacrificed or expected to be sacrificed in some way. 

All of her less valued children are sadly.