House of the Dragon Spoiler Thread #1

[The Good Doctor]

4 hours ago, Celan said:

This video is quite critical of the writing. 

I obviously agree with him about the issues with the Rhaenys scene and Mysaria’s character overall, but otherwise, if the worst thing to happen in this show is a little bit of meandering with Daemon’s plot (which is still filled with good character work), then likening it to Star Wars, Rings of Power, or the latter seasons of GoT is a huge stretch. Those things are fundamentally broken on every level, with atrocious and inconsistent characters, stories that make no sense and don’t even respect basic time and space, and outright disdain for their source material. Some dodgy pacing doesn’t even begin to compare.

Also it feels like there’s a lot of revisionism about Miguel Sapochnik being this awesome figure who the show is now suffering in absence of. Why no mention of him being the one who directed quite a few of GoT’s worst episodes, wanting Alicent to be based on Trump and the show to lean heavily into themes of misogyny and sexism, or walking out because HBO wouldn’t give his inexperienced wife a producer role?

People were rightly critical of him back in GoT season 8, and now it’s like he’s some hero and HotD sucks without him.

[The Good Doctor]

As for the criticism of the dragon in the Vale not fitting GRRM’s description of how dragons work, that has two issues.

First is that Dragons aren’t even portrayed as nomadic in the show. All but one have been shown to reside on Dragonstone unless taken away by its rider. The only exception is explicitly said and shown to be ranging in the Vale for food because the livestock back home is getting rounded up for the dragons who have riders.

Second is that it’s not the show’s fault that GRRM never detailed dragon roosting habits except in a blog post after the show came out.

That’s like you writing a scene of Boldir eating a peanut butter sandwich and then me accusing you of disrespecting the lore because in my head Boldir is allergic to peanuts.  Would be my fault for never getting around to writing it. Which is GRRM’s specialty at this point. 

[The Good Doctor]

Fun trivia, the knight Simon is played by a knight named Simon.  

https://m.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/simon-russell-beale-knighted-for-distinguished-career-in-theatre/38193201.html

[Celan]

2 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

I obviously agree with him about the issues with the Rhaenys scene and Mysaria’s character overall, but otherwise, if the worst thing to happen in this show is a little bit of meandering with Daemon’s plot (which is still filled with good character work), then likening it to Star Wars, Rings of Power, or the latter seasons of GoT is a huge stretch. Those things are fundamentally broken on every level, with atrocious and inconsistent characters, stories that make no sense and don’t even respect basic time and space, and outright disdain for their source material. Some dodgy pacing doesn’t even begin to compare.

Also it feels like there’s a lot of revisionism about Miguel Sapochnik being this awesome figure who the show is now suffering in absence of. Why no mention of him being the one who directed quite a few of GoT’s worst episodes, wanting Alicent to be based on Trump and the show to lean heavily into themes of misogyny and sexism, or walking out because HBO wouldn’t give his inexperienced wife a producer role?

People were rightly critical of him back in GoT season 8, and now it’s like he’s some hero and HotD sucks without him.

Ugh, JFC. I didn’t know that about Alicent. And I see that he did direct probably the worst GoT episode other than the finale. 

[Celan]

2 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

As for the criticism of the dragon in the Vale not fitting GRRM’s description of how dragons work, that has two issues.

First is that Dragons aren’t even portrayed as nomadic in the show. All but one have been shown to reside on Dragonstone unless taken away by its rider. The only exception is explicitly said and shown to be ranging in the Vale for food because the livestock back home is getting rounded up for the dragons who have riders.

Second is that it’s not the show’s fault that GRRM never detailed dragon roosting habits except in a blog post after the show came out.

That’s like you writing a scene of Boldir eating a peanut butter sandwich and then me accusing you of disrespecting the lore because in my head Boldir is allergic to peanuts.  Would be my fault for never getting around to writing it. Which is GRRM’s specialty at this point. 

I don’t see this as a big deal, either. Who knows, GRRM could be referring to something else entirely. He needs to release the next book, damn it.

[The Good Doctor]

4 minutes ago, Celan said:

Ugh, JFC. I didn’t know that about Alicent. And I see that he did direct probably the worst GoT episode other than the finale. 

Yeah. I remember being happy to see him leave. A lot of people were. It’s weird now that the consensus seems to be shifting to "we’re lost without Miguel!" as if the guy was ever the reason things were good.

At best I’ll say he’s usually a good cinematographer, but even that often comes at the expense of things making sense. Like the mountains of corpses and movements of the armies in Battle of the Bastards looked cool, but they were also total nonsense.

7 minutes ago, Celan said:

I don’t see this as a big deal, either. Who knows, GRRM could be referring to something else entirely. He needs to release the next book, damn it.

You’re right. He could literally just be musing about his world because he had dragons on the brain. But even if he is referring to the show, GRRM is more than capable of being wrong.

"Winds of Winter" has turned out to be the most appropriate name ever for this book, considering how often GRRM uses "words are wind" to describe people being all talk and no action. His words about the story and its setting would hold a lot more weight if we had any faith that it would ever even be completed. 

[Celan]

4 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

Yeah. I remember being happy to see him leave. A lot of people were. It’s weird now that the consensus seems to be shifting to "we’re lost without Miguel!" as if the guy was ever the reason things were good.

At best I’ll say he’s usually a good cinematographer, but even that often comes at the expense of things making sense. Like the mountains of corpses and movements of the armies in Battle of the Bastards looked cool, but they were also total nonsense.

I hadn't heard anyone else say this, but then I don't hang around ASoIaF fandom. 

I wouldn't say he's a good cinematographer if that horrible Winterfell is anything to go by. It was so dark you couldn't see a fucking thing. And also totally nonsensical everything.

[The Good Doctor]

6 minutes ago, Celan said:

I hadn't heard anyone else say this, but then I don't hang around ASoIaF fandom. 

I wouldn't say he's a good cinematographer if that horrible Winterfell is anything to go by. It was so dark you couldn't see a fucking thing. And also totally nonsensical everything.

I’ve been checking in here and there and it seems to be a growing consensus on forums that are less thrilled about the show.

You're right. He’s done some impressive episodes, but the Long Night had the worst cinematography in the show. On top of being too dark to see, the choreography was terrible and lots of events just made no sense at all.

[Celan]

This is long, but you can get the gist in the first ten minutes and then skip ahead to around 28:00 where he has an interesting theory on the identity of Alys Rivers. Namely that she is actually not a Strong but a Blackwood and thus related to the Three Eyed Raven.

His theory is that she is trying to create an alliance with Targaryens as the Blackwoods have multiple times, in order to win certain dragons for the side of the weirwoods/ old gods.

I had also been reminded of Old Nan by her character, another woman who seems tied to the old gods. GRRM had been working on a novella about the Wolf Women of Winterfell, which also was supposed to be a spinoff series on HBO, but both have been nixed. I wonder if that's because the story would spoil something about the mythology that GRRM isn't ready to reveal yet.

 

[The Good Doctor]

2 hours ago, Celan said:

GRRM had been working on a novella about the Wolf Women of Winterfell, which also was supposed to be a spinoff series on HBO, but both have been nixed.

Wasn’t She Wolves of Winterfell supposed to be the next Dunk and Egg book? I remember George saying he still plans on continuing that series after Winds of Winter, but who knows if that’s still what it’s going to be.

[Celan]

5 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Wasn’t She Wolves of Winterfell supposed to be the next Dunk and Egg book? I remember George saying he still plans on continuing that series after Winds of Winter, but who knows that’s still what it’s going to be.

Yeah I had been looking forward to that and then he said he was delaying it.

[The Good Doctor]

8 minutes ago, Celan said:

Yeah I had been looking forward to that and then he said he was delaying it.

Me too. What sucks is he seems happy to put any and all other projects before Winds, just not the single one that would have actually been worth getting first.  

[Celan]

38 minutes ago, The Good Doctor said:

Me too. What sucks is he seems happy to put any and all other projects before Winds, just not the single one that would have actually been worth getting first.  

He said he feared "pulling a Lost," meaning I guess that his mythology wouldn't be received well and he couldn't stick a landing. 

[The Good Doctor]

19 minutes ago, Celan said:

He said he feared "pulling a Lost," meaning I guess that his mythology wouldn't be received well and he couldn't stick a landing. 

Turns out he was worried about the wrong "lost on an island" TV fate. ASoIaF is more like "Gilligan’s Island" as we’ll never get to know how the story ends.

[The Good Doctor]

I’ll be honest, the finale was probably my least favorite episode this season. Felt more like a penultimate episode rather than a finale. No real payoffs or climaxes, and it seems like all the stuff that they should’ve ended the season with got left on cliffhangers.

Reminded me a lot of A Dance With Dragons, in which George spent the whole book building up to three big climactic battles, and then it just sort of "stopped" rather than having a proper ending, and all the storylines’ climaxes were pushed off to Winds.

Daemon is the big exception. Man had a full arc in this season that ended with the satisfying closure of him finally recognizing his and Rhaenyra’s roles and accepting them. I liked his Harrenhal story a lot. This episode’s weirwood scene was great too. Though it’s a little painful to watch this make the turd that GoT turned into look so much better than it really was.

Having fifty scenes of Rhaena just running was… a choice. And it’s downright bizarre how she, a Targaryen daughter, just ditched her family and sprinted off into the wilderness for days and nobody pursued her. The Knights of the Vale should’ve been able to find her in like an hour. Felt lazily done and rushed so they could hurry up and end with her finding the dragon.

I did not like the scene of Alicent going to Rhaenyra much.

[Celan]

I feel pretty much the same way. Great setup for ep 9 and 10... womp womp.

And Raena running, yes. Let's have another shot of her running. And now her resting between running. Now running some more. 

Also agreed about Daemon. I thought his story lagged throughout the year as you know, but the conclusion was satisfying, as Helaena of all people puts aside the fact that he killed her son and helps send him on his anti-hero quest. Of course, she's sending him to Aemond so it's really not mercy. I liked the little flash of the Three Eyed Raven and Danaerys as Daemon's descendants that are needed to set up the battle of Ice and Fire.

The meeting with Rhaenyra and Alicent felt as contrived as the first one. Isn't there supposed to be a blockade?

Half the episode being taken up by a joke of a sea captain + Tyland Lannister was a bit much.

All in all it was okay character wise, a bit disappointing as a finale.

[The Good Doctor]

On 8/5/2024 at 5:18 AM, Celan said:

The meeting with Rhaenyra and Alicent felt as contrived as the first one. Isn't there supposed to be a blockade?

Half the episode being taken up by a joke of a sea captain + Tyland Lannister was a bit much.

Might be even worse. As bad as Rhaenyra’s was, at least she controlled the blockade herself. Alicent getting through it from the other side with no apparent effort makes you question how serious it even is.

I enjoyed Tyland getting some more to do than look nervous at Small Council meetings, and it got some excitement from me when he got that gut punch in on the cringey pirate and laid him(?) flat. But yeah, it’s weird that so much of the run time basically went towards a comedy plot.

[The Good Doctor]

On a more positive note, I think that this season made Criston Cole way better than he was in the first. I really like the direction they’ve gone with him, with his mounting guilt over failing Prince Jaeherys, then getting the twins killed, and finally for his part in unleashing the dragons on the world and basically accepting death. It builds well off of his prior characterization of "Alicent’s thug who was scorned by Rhaenyra", but is way more interesting.

Same for Aegon. Alongside Daemon, he has been the highlight of season 2 for me.  Something I love is how the first episode had him looking for a title to be remembered by and rejecting the more passive ones his friends suggested in favor of more heroic or badass ones. But by the end, after experiencing so much loss and horror from the war, that is what he seems to want more than anything. Also, I’m very sad that Sunfyre is seemingly confirmed dead. That, or Larys had his survival covered up, maybe? Would fit his plan to run away and one day return for the throne.

The Dragonseeds were great in these last two episodes as well. We didn’t get as much from Hugh as I’d have liked (hope we get a scene one day of him noting that Rhaenyra’s blockade killed his daughter), but Ulf was a hoot. Even when he’s trying to be nice, everything he says is exactly what Jace doesn’t need to hear with his bastard insecurities.  And his line to Rhaenyra "well you’d better make me a knight, then" got a good laugh out of me. That was a damn good comeback.  

[Celan]

I would like to see the dragonseeds with Daemon. He likes raw courage and even tolerates impudence if he can respect a person.

It just really felt like the season should have ended with Rhaenyra on the throne. Leave Daemon vs. Aemond as the cliffhanger.

[The Good Doctor]

18 minutes ago, Celan said:

I would like to see the dragonseeds with Daemon. He likes raw courage and even tolerates impudence if he can respect a person.

It just really felt like the season should have ended with Rhaenyra on the throne. Leave Daemon vs. Aemond as the cliffhanger.

I feel like Jace gets some of his Targaryen elitism from stepdaddy Daemon, but is such a bundle of bastard insecurity that he can’t keep it contained. I reckon Daemon would have the self-confidence to respect the dragonriders’ strength without feeling threatened by it.

Completely agreed. It’s lame to end on a cliffhanger of "Rhaenyra will take Kings Landing in just three days" and then make us wait two years to see it. Her sitting the Iron Throne would’ve been the perfect money shot to end the season with.

[The Good Doctor]

What do you think of the ending snippet with Otto imprisoned?

I was disappointed that one of the main and best characters apparently had a whole storyline of getting captured that was left off-screen. Adds even more to the feeling of this season being incomplete.

I’m guessing he either got nabbed by the Reachmen who turned cloak over Lord Beesbury's murder, or Larys Strong had him waylaid in secret. I lean towards the latter, since there were no letters of demands for his return, and it has more potential for interesting drama.

[The Good Doctor]

@Celan Apparently this season was meant to end with the Battle of the Gullet, but the ending was rewritten to push that back for season 3. That makes a lot of sense. 

[Celan]

On 8/5/2024 at 11:27 AM, The Good Doctor said:

What do you think of the ending snippet with Otto imprisoned?

I was disappointed that one of the main and best characters apparently had a whole storyline of getting captured that was left off-screen. Adds even more to the feeling of this season being incomplete.

I’m guessing he either got nabbed by the Reachmen who turned cloak over Lord Beesbury's murder, or Larys Strong had him waylaid in secret. I lean towards the latter, since there were no letters of demands for his return, and it has more potential for interesting drama.

Confused. They didn't show where he was or how he got there. It was just to add to the pile of cliffhangers, I guess.

9 hours ago, The Good Doctor said:

@Celan Apparently this season was meant to end with the Battle of the Gullet, but the ending was rewritten to push that back for season 3. That makes a lot of sense. 

It would have been a lot better if it had ended that way.

[ColonelKillaBee]

Favorite scene was Daemon's of course, really really good.

But they definitely blue balled us man I cant believe I gotta wait a year or more to see what happens. I should've waited till the show was finished like i usually do lol. 

[The Good Doctor]

3 minutes ago, ColonelKillaBee said:

Favorite scene was Daemon's of course, really really good.

But they definitely blue balled us man I cant believe I gotta wait a year or more to see what happens. I should've waited till the show was finished like i usually do lol. 

I’m glad you didn’t. We got some good conversations out of it.